Women's health isn't a cause, it's infrastructure. Med tech founder Marissa Fayer breaks down why closing the women's health gap is worth a trillion dollars a year, and why capital still isn't following.
In this conversation:
Marissa Fayer, CEO, DeepLook Medical
Megan Antonelli, Chief Executive Officer, HealthIMPACT Live
00:00:00 Break: Welcome to Digital Health talks. Each week we meet with healthcare leaders making an immeasurable difference in equity, access and quality. Hear about what tech is worth investing in and what isn't as we focus on the innovations that deliver. Join Megan Antonelli, Jenny Sharp and Shahid Shah for a weekly no BS deep dive on what's really making an impact in healthcare.
00:00:30 Megan Antonelli: Women are half the population and half the workforce, and roughly six percent of private healthcare capital goes to the conditions that affect them. My guest ran the math and landed somewhere most of healthcare still resists. Closing the gap is worth a trillion dollars a year to the global economy, which means women's health is not a cause. It is infrastructure. This is Megan Antonelli, CEO of Health Impact Live, and this is digital health talks. My guest today does not just make this argument. She is building the proof. Marissa Fair has spent twenty five years in med tech. She took an AI imaging company from concept through FDA clearance and into the market. And this month, the World Economic Forum named that company a twenty twenty six technology pioneer. A two year cohort that puts her shoulder to shoulder with the people setting the global health and capital agenda for the next decade. She also wrote the operator's playbook for treating women's health like the infrastructure it already is. Hi, Marissa, how are you?
00:01:29 Marissa Fayer: I'm good. How are you?
00:01:30 Megan Antonelli: I'm great. You know, I'm so excited to have you here on the show. You had, um, you know, I, I saw on LinkedIn as as I do. Uh, you're out to dinner with some very, uh, you know, great women from the New York healthcare community. And I just, it caught my attention. And then I was very excited to read about your book. So tell our audience a little bit about your background and then we'll get into, um, the new book.
00:01:55 Marissa Fayer: Absolutely. So twenty five, twenty six year med tech exec, um, engineer by background with an MBA, but I've been in healthcare my entire career. I've been in women's health for twenty one of those twenty six years, so it's been a while. Before it was popular. Um, but new product development, mergers and acquisitions and then became a serial entrepreneur, uh, about fifteen years after I was in corporate for fifteen years. And I realized later on why I was fighting with everybody. It's because apparently I'm an entrepreneur and so started a, um, a global nonprofit, started a consulting firm and have just been doing a lot of executive work. And currently I'm the CEO of Deep Look Medical, which is a software imaging company. Um, in the imaging and radiology space. And I also serve as CEO of and founder of her health, a global nonprofit focused on women's health in developing countries. So, um, and a whole bunch of things. Funds advising, um, board positions, all the things because I think it's boring to do just one.
00:03:00 Megan Antonelli: Yes. Well, amazing. And it's such a you know, I think, as you said before, it was popular. And lately we thankfully there has been some attention to women's health and certainly some some funding going their way. But I think, you know, I said in the open that certainly the the amount of funding now is something around six percent. And obviously it affects a lot more than six percent of the population, and particularly when it comes to breast cancer. And I know the work that you do with deep look medical, um, you know, the, the issue of deep breast tissue has something that has become something that more people are aware of now having to go back for multiple tests. But tell us a little bit about deep look and how you got into, um, you know, that that work.
00:03:44 Marissa Fayer: Yeah. So dense breast tissue affects forty five percent of all women. They say, we all know it's actually about seventy percent of all women. Um, because just a lot of it hasn't been tested and reported. So, um, you know, the issue with dense breasts is that you can't visualize in standard imaging. Now, this is standard imaging, by the way, that I've developed and created and launched. So it's not like it's a secret. Um, this is known and by the standard mammograms, you, you just cannot see through dense breast tissue because dense breast tissue shows up white and so does cancer, um, on mammograms. And so you need a software technology that can visualize the differences between dense breasts and a possible lesion, um, or a mass. Um, so this is where software comes in. This is the benefits of technology and AI, um, to just be a software add on, on top of the existing imaging, because the imaging still needs to happen and everyone still needs to get it. Like I'm not saying don't get it. Like you actually very much should get it, but radiologists have a really hard time seeing it. And it's just it's no fault of any human. It's just they're humans and they're not computers. And so, um, we're a software that helps them visualize and the intent is to reduce the amount of tests that women with dense breasts have to come back repeatedly for. So you don't have to come back for two or three more mammograms. You don't have to come back for an ultrasound. You don't have to come back maybe for a biopsy, because the radiologist can see what they're looking for instead of just saying, actually we can't see. So we have to have you back for more imaging. And this affects me. This affects, you know, my family. This affects, uh, you know, friends. I mean, I don't think there's a room where I go in when I tell people about deep look, uh, you know, and they're just like, oh, I've never heard of. Everybody knows of somebody, oh, this just happened to me. Or I have dense breasts. I mean, this is that's why it's, you know, we think and know that it's probably seventy percent of all women right now.
00:05:46 Megan Antonelli: Absolutely. I have had to go back myself. Exactly. Certainly with the amount of time, the time it takes to just make those appointments, let alone when you get there and you have to wait and all that stuff. So it certainly saves money. And, and in terms of the the software itself gets embedded in, uh, existing workflows and software that exists.
00:06:08 Marissa Fayer: Correct. So we embed ourselves into existing workflows. So it's not something extra that a radiologist typically has to do something they can, you know, oh, this is interesting. I want to actually just make one extra click. And there it is. It's not done on every single image. It's not done on every single area. Um, they want to take pun intended, a deeper look. Um, they click a button for something that's already embedded into their workflow. And what we do is we partner with some of the larger, you know, big companies, um, so that it's already part of their product and it's an, you know, an add on to their product and it's something that they can sell, we sell and the radiologists just use it.
00:06:46 Megan Antonelli: Right? Amazing. That's great. Um, you know, and I think we talk about it a lot in terms of sort of why the health care system has focused on men and women were kind of studied, you know, smaller men or just, you know, not at all to some degree. And, you know, with your experience having worked in this space for so long, tell us from your side of things, kind of why has women's health kind of stayed on the sidelines for so long? Why? Why has it taken, you know, way too long for us to get here? Where, where there's seemingly some attention being focused on it?
00:07:20 Marissa Fayer: Well, first of all, I want to also point out that women's health has been a priority. It just hasn't been categorized as a priority or it hasn't been categorized as women's health. So there's been a ton of exits that have happened. There's been a ton of work that's happened, and a lot of it's just called oncology. So, um, I'm not to say to diminish because like, listen, there's not enough work being done on women's health. So we can be very clear on that. But, um, there has been a ton of work. I mean, there's entire companies that are based around women's health. They just again, are calling it, they're an imaging company or an oncology company or, you know, or other types of, of companies, but it just hasn't been prioritized. And the other point is that the people who have been controlling the capital have typically been men, and it's not a priority issue for them, and none of it's out of malice. It's just simply out of ignorance, of knowing what the space is and what the problems are, because they're not necessarily experiencing having to go back four different times every six months for a mammogram and additional imaging, or they're not having to, you know, have a speculum, uh, you know, put in their vagina for cervical cancer screenings or things like that. So these are just things that they're not used to and used to not want to talk about. Now in our culture, we love to talk about everything, thank goodness. And so it's out there a lot more. I don't think I don't I really, truly to my core, don't think any of it's it was based on malice. It was just ignorance, simply, it was simply ignorance. And the people who are controlling the money used to be like ninety nine percent. Now, you know, I think we're at ninety percent. Um, so it keeps getting better. Uh, you know, is men and they just you. You invest in things and you develop products and in categories that you understand. And if you don't understand it, you're not going to necessarily invest in it, right?
00:09:09 Megan Antonelli: Yeah. And I think to your point, I mean, we're seeing so many more entrepreneurs that are women focusing on the challenges that they're having and the health issues that they have. And therefore, there's, there's a little bit more product out there. And certainly as we've kind of come through, I think with menopause and women of that generation, and they're out there and they were building products, you know, on both sides. And then they they hit hit this period of their life. And then there's been a number of, you know, products and services and, um, you know, that have become available and both the attention to those are coming. So it's great to see there from your side of things. I know as you've, as you've written the book and as you've done the research behind this, you know, in the book is called undervalued to Unavoidable, avoidable. So tell us a little bit about that and maybe a little bit around, you know, how that ties into kind of the the menopause and women's health story that's that's sort of unfolding now.
00:10:06 Marissa Fayer: Well, we used to be undervalued and undervalued is a financial term. So it used to be undervalued and not invested in. It's not just in money invested. It's invested as far as workplace programs or invested in as far as, um, making policies that are for us and under, you know, uninvested and undervalued related to, um, products that were for us. And, um, and now it's unavoidable, as you said, we're in your face, like all these women are hitting menopause. I mean, celebrities are talking about it. So, um, and honestly, the subtitle is women's health as infrastructure and it's about investing in, in the things that are the base layer of infrastructure for our society. So we have no problem putting money and thought and process and projects together for roads and for bridges and for buildings. But half the population, fifty one percent of the population, are women. And if they don't have their health to use those things, what what do you what are you investing in those things for? So we are the base layer. We are the ones that are focused on making sure children are going to school, making sure that new products are coming out and being developed that are appropriate. Um, I'm a woman engineer. I was one of the few women engineers in the room in a lot of the corporate positions that I had, and that's not acceptable. Now a lot of it's changing, but there's a lot of companies where it's still not being discussed. And so when we talk about undervalued, we were and now we're in your face and we should be because it's unavoidable that women's health is here and that we're talking about it. Um, and so there's everything to do with what we're all experiencing every single day.
00:11:58 Megan Antonelli: Right? Yeah. And I think that distinction between, you know, kind of women's health as kind of a cause. Yes, of course we should support women's health. And that versus.
00:12:07 Marissa Fayer: Yeah, it's a charity. It's not a charity. I mean, there's plenty of charities focused on it, but it's, you know, this, this is this is who this is. We're a culture. I mean, this is who we are. This is, you know, we're here.
00:12:20 Megan Antonelli: Right? Well, and I think when you think about women's health journey, right. And that you, you know, from childbearing age to menopause, the impact on productivity and performance, and, you know, what they spend money on. And of course, women also spend a lot of money on health care being in many cases, the, the main kind of health care decision maker in, in a household. So the idea that that they wouldn't be focused on or wouldn't be a good, you know, a good value in the market is almost, you know, it's, it's counterintuitive to, to anyone who's really paying attention. Um, but I think the work, the work side of it is also a place where we don't hear about it as much. I have a friend who launched a, you know, an event in that space kind of menopause and work and what that means and why employers should care. And I think we're seeing that a lot more. What's your experience been, though, in writing the book and talking to folks?
00:13:16 Marissa Fayer: Women are their most productive and are hitting the peak of their careers, just as they're also hitting perimenopause and menopause. And, you know, menopause is is a moment. Perimenopause is seven to ten years before that moment. And then there's the seven to ten years afterwards. We're talking about a fifteen to twenty year part of a woman's life when they're hitting their most productive in companies. And honestly, ten to fifteen percent of them are having to step away because there's not support programs in place or they don't have the right products to manage the symptoms. There's nothing anybody can do to stop the process. You know, fertility and pregnancy is a choice. And, um, everyone supports that and we have parties for it. And, uh, you know, there's, there's leave and all of these things. Menopause is inevitable. Some people get affected, you know, the very few don't. And you're at your most productive stage. You've spent twenty years in your career building this up. And the workforce is we're leaving. Um, and companies are suffering as a result of this. So I've started to see a lot of companies finally start to put programs in place to have support systems, um, that you can take leave or, you know, or there's new programs in place. Thank goodness there's remote working sometimes. Um, also many times you're in a point where you are still childcare, you're also elder care and you're trying to take care of yourself and your family. So there's just a lot going on. and I think companies are realizing they're having a really hard time retaining talent in general. And now you have women who are at the primes of their careers that are also having to choose to leave because they're not supported. Um, that doesn't help any economy. It doesn't help any company. It doesn't help anybody. And so, um, that's what I've been seeing. We also have to think about this on a global scale. So what I focus on in the book almost explicitly is the global scale of women's health and what this looks like, because this is not an American problem. This, you know, only this is an everywhere problem. It's not just American women who are going through menopause. We might be the most vocal about it because we are the most vocal, probably. But this isn't everywhere problem and it looks different everywhere. It also looks different for different demographics, and we have to think about what that looks like as well. It's actually oftentimes worse symptoms for black women. Why? Why? The answer is why. We don't know. And this is where the investment also has to go in to understand why and put these programs in place to support them.
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00:16:30 Megan Antonelli: And while there is a tension and certainly we're seeing celebrities talk about it and and there's certainly some funding going to some of the companies. There's still, you know, I think I think you mentioned in the book, you know, kind of a mispriced market where versus not an unproven one. So why do you know what's taking so long? What do people still need to understand to kind of get that money where it needs to be?
00:16:54 Marissa Fayer: I wish I had an answer for you. I have no idea what is taking so long. There's a lot of people that are starting to come around to it, but it's slow and we know that institutions move slowly. So the fast movers are making changes very quickly. And these are smaller funds. These are NGOs. These are small companies like in the women's health space that are that are moving quickly. But institutions generally take a long time. So when we think about, oh, they're not moving. I agree. Period. End of sentence. I agree it's not moving fast enough. But when we think about changes that need to be made at the very large institutions, it does take time and I don't think it should. I mean, that's why I'm an entrepreneur because I can't you know, I, I don't like the bureaucracy of it. I know we have to work within it. Um, but I don't know why things are taking so long. I think we're at this point where it's starting to amplify at a greater pace Then it was many years ago. And again, we've been talking about women's health forever. Um, finally it's picking up, you know, the speed and it's getting the attention. Um, and there's bigger market movers that are making it have this attention with their, you know, their, their celebrity, their credibility, their movement. There's also some companies that are, that are larger now that are starting to, you know, garner their attention. It's still too slow. And sadly, I wish I had an answer for you because I don't, I don't know, um, and continuing to put the money and the decisions in more women's hands will make it move faster. That's, that's where I think because again, it's not just money, it's decisions within corporations. If the decision makers and the policy makers, those are more women that will move faster.
00:18:49 Megan Antonelli: Right? Yeah. I mean, it's sort of this misconception that it's a, you know, the market is too small, but, you know, it's literally, as you know, fifty percent of the marketplace and of active, you know, real active participants, certainly more engaged in their health. I mean, I'm maybe I'm being a little stereotypical, but typically they are. And, you know, and so in terms of the purchases that are, um, the purchasing power when it comes to health, it lays in their hands. So the idea that, um, you know, that the investment isn't there is kind of crazy. And I think we're seeing that. I mean, it's obviously after years of kind of being told hormone therapy is not safe. You know, the, the winds are shifting there. Um, what's your, what are you seeing in terms of funding rooms and, and people's attitudes around that? Uh, right now.
00:19:42 Marissa Fayer: I think finally people are starting to move. Um, and there's so much data that's out there and it's enough with the data. People are actually like, okay, enough, like enough, like I see it, I see it and they're wanting to do something about it. Finally. Um, and this is where a lot of people are starting to, to move forward and they're starting to take steps. And I think HRT was one of the first ones and which is great because there was one horrible study that said all of this and our, all of our mothers had to suffer as a result. Um, and, um, I had the conversation with my mom. I mean, she said, yeah, I read, I mean, I heard this study and I gradually took myself off of it and, you know, thank goodness. And, and I said, well, like, I'm on it and it's a godsend. And she was like, I know, because I remember when you weren't on it. So, um. So, you know, for most people, and it's not just, it's not just the attitude, it's, you know, and the personality, but it's also, um, your body and your, your bone structures and things that you don't think about. And I very much respect an incredible, uh, menopause and perimenopause doctor, doctor Jessica Shepherd and, you know, she talks about listen, you have to be strong for the rest of your life. And if it's appropriate and if you're able to, hormone therapy is, is great for you. Um, but we're starting to get people moving because there's so much information and so much detail out there and so many reports and so many books, you know, such as my own and people are wanting to do something with that and they're finally able to in a concrete way that's not necessarily just charity and just advocacy. And just because it's the right thing to do. There are so many reasons that this is a great investment space. This is great to do within your company. It's of course, a smarter business decision to have women as part of your design teams. I mean, we don't think about these things, but I mean, if you don't have a woman who's actually part of a design team, Have they tested the products for the actual intended use, or do they have any insight? I mean, you know, an all male team creating a product for a woman. They have no lived experience or no different thought processes. And it doesn't have to be a lived experience. It just has to be a different thought process. So there's finally momentum around that. And thank God there's, um, you know, women in all levels of, of education in school and as an engineer, thank goodness there's even more women in engineering school coming out. So I think, you know, part of why I put the word unavoidable in the book title is because it is like it's, there's no other like it's in your face. There's no other way to go with this.
00:22:40 Megan Antonelli: Right? Well, and that's, I mean, I think and you talked about the internationally too, I mean, and, and sort of the cultural differences between one, how, how and what we're comfortable talking about, obviously, you know, changes as you go from state to state, let alone country to country and continent to continent. But what what are you seeing as you travel? You just said you were in Asia. Um, you know, talking about the book, what, you know, has anything struck you are things, um, you know, are there communities that have been more receptive to this conversation? What, what are you taking from that kind of global outlook?
00:23:15 Marissa Fayer: I think everybody's receptive to it. Um, and again, it's, it's been so much in their face and there's, you react to data, you react to information. And just as we did with, uh, I don't know, space race and, you know, you know, and we talk about space tech and we talk about Bitcoin and, you know, and, you know, fintech and all of these things, you react to the reports, you react to the information. And that's exactly what's happening now. Um, I think there's a massive conversation that's happening in Africa. So I do a lot of work there as well. Um, it's very, you know, obviously different culture. Um, but it's being widely adopted because they know that women hold up there, the entire society, um, Asia women are highly regarded as well in many cultures. And so it's, it's becoming more of a mainstay. Obviously a lot of it starts in the US and uh, it's not enough in the US, but I think a lot of the conversations are saturated and they're starting to go other places. Um, and so it looks different other places. And outside of the US, it absolutely does. But you can have these conversations and you know, between New York and Nairobi and I was just in Asia and you can have those same conversations. And it's very much still part of the discussion. And people actually want to have those discussions now. It's not everybody. Um, and I think you have to be sensitive to what the discussions are, um, and also what the applications are, because what we would develop here in the US and use here might not be the same as what is actually needed in Nairobi or in India or somewhere else. Not to say that they don't need an incredible product. They do. They just need a better and different incredible product. Um, and it's not, it doesn't always look the same. And I think, um, I've been in this space long enough to know that what we develop for a hospital system in the US is not necessarily the same as what a hospital system in Nairobi is going to use.
00:25:16 Megan Antonelli: But the interest is there and it is.
00:25:17 Marissa Fayer: Interest is there. There's femtech conferences that are happening everywhere. There's a women's health being put on general healthcare, um, conference circuits and discussion points. Um, maternal health has always been on the agenda, um, everywhere, especially, I mean outside of the US. Um, and now it's expanding to other places. So in other areas. And so when we talk about women's health being on the agenda, it's on the agenda now it needs to be on a bigger agenda. Um, it needs to be in bigger spaces, obviously. Um, and being more part of the agenda, but we talk about the World Economic Forum. You know, I was just in Asia, in China for those meetings and it's on the agenda. Uh, there was just a I was just in Korea. I mean, there was a femtech discussion that was happening there as well. It's also part of corporations there knowing that this is a big market segment that people are paying attention to, and it's a huge market that deserves to be served.
00:26:17 Megan Antonelli: Right? Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, and we talk about kind of even the shift towards longevity and well span and these conversations of how long, you know, healthspan and what that means, and all of it requires a much more holistic view of health care in general, right? And I think that that's always been a little bit of the challenge with women's health, because women's health is obviously crosses all of the specialties, right? You know, and, and so what that means, and it's an organ, it's because our health care system is organized in such a way that treats, you know, each body system separately, if you will. Um, that, then that value chain isn't the same value chain as we have for oncology or, you know, um, but that does feel like it's changing. Do you see that globally? Are you seeing that here in the US in terms of, you know, the dialogues that you're having with either hospitals, health systems, physicians independently?
00:27:18 Marissa Fayer: I do think it's changing. There is obviously the focus on wellspan now. Women live longer, but they actually live in poorer health, um, towards the end of their life. And what's the point of living longer if you're in poor health? And so we're talking as exactly what you said. Healthspan. Um, because that's the most important thing. So you can have longevity, but if you don't have healthspan, what's the point of having longevity? Um, it is actually valued, um, healthspan much more in other cultures than ours. Um, we are a very reactive healthcare system instead of a proactive healthcare system. and there's a lot of focus and a lot of other societies and a lot of other countries that it's much more on the proactive care. And also, like you said, taking a holistic view. And, you know, it's a mix of eastern and Western medicine and it's a mix of, um, you know, looking at people as whole systems as opposed to just your disease state, or if you have a disease state and just a screening and, you know, again, reactive care. And so I actually see it moving forward at a faster pace outside of the US than it is in the US. Again, the US, we just talk about it and we're very loud and there's a lot of money and movement, you know, towards that. And so that's why everyone thinks it's that it's, you know, moving even faster. It's just ingrained in a lot of other societies that that's part of the society. And the health span is part of the society. I was just, I was just in Asia, I was just in Korea and they in South Korea and they value the health, you know, your health more than, oh, You're sick. Yeah. You know, like they value the health span a lot more. Um, and they focus on it, which I think is really important.
00:29:01 Megan Antonelli: Yeah. No, absolutely. And I think that's what's so great about your book and how you're positioning it. Um, as you know, we mentioned that we always close on our, our segment, which is five good things. So we ask our guests to close on something good. What's the one good thing happening in women's health right now that's making you, you know, excited to be a part of it?
00:29:21 Marissa Fayer: I can think of more than one, but I'll give you one. So, um, I think there's a lot of fun, fun to fund investments specifically in the women's health space. And that's where you get to move money towards women's health. And this is happening on a global scale. Um, you know, again, from Korea to Kenya, like this is moving money towards the companies, the projects, the focus towards women, um, in a greater scale Instead of just small minute. So when you move bigger money, you have bigger impact. And that that's, that's my one big good thing.
00:30:04 Megan Antonelli: Yeah, that is good. Um, and tell our audience where they can get undervalued to unavoidable. Um, I know it was released in June. So what's the best way for them to get their hands on a copy and also get in touch with you?
00:30:17 Marissa Fayer: Yeah, absolutely. So Marissa fair dot com, um, has all the resources, also links to the book, which are both on in Barnes and noble dot com and in Amazon or directly on the, on our website. And, um, that's how they can get it. Uh, audiobooks should be coming out soon as well. Um, so everyone can listen to, uh, either myself narrated or somebody else. Um, and, um, just, uh, it's available. Just reach out to me and, uh, we'll get, make sure you get a copy.
00:30:48 Megan Antonelli: That's great. Well, thanks so much, Marissa. It's been great to connect and to, to learn about the book and I'm excited to read it myself and share it with my my friends and colleagues who all care about this topic very much. So thanks so much for the work you're doing.
00:31:01 Marissa Fayer: Thank you so much for having me.
00:31:03 Megan Antonelli: Absolutely. So here's the takeaway. Women's health is not a cause. It is infrastructure and the capital that flows to it shapes economies, productivity and lives. Thanks for joining us, Marissa, and thanks to our audience for listening. Women's health is not a cause. It is infrastructure and the capital that flows to it shapes economies, productivity, and lives. If this conversation got you thinking, and that is kind of the whole point, share it with someone who needs to hear it. Subscribe to Digital Health Talks. Follow us on YouTube and visit Health Impact Live. This is Megan Antonelli, CEO of Health Impact Live. And this is digital health Talks. Let's keep fixing health care one conversation at a time.
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