Two hundred episodes. One season finale. Everything in between.
If you watched The Pitt this week, you saw something the healthcare industry doesn't usually let the public see. The impossible standards, the double standard, the small wins nobody celebrates, and an entire staff on a roof crying for reasons they can't quite explain.
Megan Antonelli and Janae Sharp have spent 200 episodes having the real version of that conversation. For this milestone, they're using The Pitt's Season 2 finale as the mirror and asking what it reflects back at digital health right now.
The biggest change nobody saw coming. The win that actually moved the needle. The loss nobody wants to own. And the double standard that's been hiding in plain sight the whole time.
No guests. No filter. Just the honest shift report.
Episode 1: View From the Top- What Does Sustainable Innovation look like in a Post Pandemic World
Episode 40: Healing - Our Patients, Our Healthcare System, Ourselves
Episode 56: Burnout Isn’t the Whole Story – And Repair Is About More Than Individual Resilience
Episode 78: Navigating the Intersection of Equity and Innovation in AI-driven Healthcare
Episode 137: Beyond the Change Healthcare Breach: Redefining Healthcare Cybersecurity for 2025
Episode 176: From Pilot to Platform - How Sutter Health is Scaling AI Across 3.5 Million Lives
Hosts:
Janae Sharp, Founder, The Sharp Index.
The Sharp Index is a nonprofit dedicated to reducing suicide and burnout and improving physician and clinician mental health.
Megan Antonelli, Founder & CEO, HealthIMPACT Live
00:00:00 Intro: Welcome to Digital Health talks. Each week we meet with healthcare leaders making an immeasurable difference in equity, access and quality. Hear about what tech is worth investing in and what isn't as we focus on the innovations that deliver. Join Megan Antonelli, Jenny Sharp and Shahid Shah for a weekly no BS deep dive on what's really making an impact in healthcare.
00:00:30 Megan Antonelli: Hi everybody. We are at episode two hundred. We're calling it ambient AI's real wins. Cybersecurity is quiet losses and healthcare's double standards. And in our style, we have a second title. What the pit season finale tells us about where we are and where we are heading now.
00:00:50 Janae Sharp: And Megan made me watch the show. Everyone needs to know that.
00:00:54 Megan Antonelli: I did, I did. And so spoiler alert, we are talking about season one, season two, and the season finale. So if you watched it, you know, they talked a lot about various things in health care and possible standards. Quiet wins that nobody celebrates double standards. Uh, a whole staff crying on the roof for reasons they don't they can't really name. Right. Well, I'm Megan Antonelli, CEO of Health Impact Live, and this is Digital Health Talks. We launched the show in July of twenty twenty five and a half years ago, and two hundred episodes in one question. Still running through it all. Is technology actually fixing health care or just optimizing what already exists? No guest today, just me and Jennie Sharp, founder of The Sharp Index, using the pit finale as the mirror and asking what it actually reflects back at digital Health right now.
00:01:54 Janae Sharp: Right. I'm really looking forward to it, too, because so many physicians identify this as the show. That's the most accurate. Obviously, Hollywood is Hollywood medicine is medicine, right? But if everyone's like, this one isn't as bad. That's high praise from people in medicine. Also, they partner with the doctor, Lorna Breen, Heroes Foundation, debriefing, debriefing the front lines, lots of organizations that care Nami about mental health and about making things better in healthcare. So seeing some of those big themes, including it be on the stage, in the main stage in entertainment. It's amazing. Imagine a medical drama that wasn't inaccurate all the time, right?
00:02:42 Megan Antonelli: Absolutely amazing. And it is. And you know, for me, Noah Wylie is enough to stop there. But to actually see our, you know, the work that we do reflected back in the show. Um, you know, is, is a lot of fun to watch, although it sometimes, uh, can be infuriating. And it certainly does point out some glaring, you know, uh, problems in the health care system, but also inaccuracies in their, uh, telling the story a bit. So let's get into it. I think, um, you know, I can't believe it's our two hundredth episode. I can't believe we've been doing this for as long as we have. Uh, and it, you know, and it is so much fun. So we're going to do is we're going to take some of the big themes and some of the big, our favorite parts of the pit and then talk about our five favorite episodes. So we're still going to do our five good things because five good things is our favorite thing about digital.
00:03:38 Janae Sharp: It's true, it's true. I really like thinking about the things that are going well. And I also like that we can look back and kind of see the progress that we've made both on our podcast and in healthcare. So what are we starting out with?
00:03:52 Megan Antonelli: Well, and one of the things that we talk about pretty consistently in health care, both in how leadership is is represented within health, IT and health care, but also in how we care for patients in terms of equity and access. So I think the the sort of latest storyline within the pit around Al-hashimi's, um, seizures and Robbie sort of, you know, totally failing to, uh, kind of address those correctly or appropriately. I mean, obviously there's many ways you could address it, but I think the double standard of how he dealt with Landon's addiction problem versus how he's handling al-Hashimi reflects both his weaknesses as a leader, but also, um, some gross inequities within the system.
00:04:47 Janae Sharp: Right. And that's one thing that was interesting because it felt unrealistic. Like if you have someone who has an addiction problem and is stealing from the hospital, let me tell you, that's not going to happen. Even if there are charming actor like.
00:05:00 Megan Antonelli: It's pretty cute.
00:05:01 Janae Sharp: Like it really felt a lot like legal. Maybe should have stepped in to the episode and helped him, but, you know.
00:05:11 Megan Antonelli: Yeah. And they kind of they glossed over what might have happened, right? I mean, yeah, you know, we don't really know the full story behind how he was put on leave or anything. But but there is definitely a double standard, and we're only beginning to see what's going to happen with al-Hashimi al-Hashimi. But we do see what Doctor Robbie you know what his reaction was and his reaction to a friend a mentee versus someone who is going to replace him for a few months. Right. Was very different.
00:05:41 Janae Sharp: And I also responded really strongly to that portion of it. Just because I've we've helped women, you know, and also it was really relatable for someone who seems a little unhinged and is in charge to just be sharing their pain with the people they work with, and it will not be a safe work environment. When you're working with a boss who is not stable, like it's going to be a nightmare. It's going to be arbitrarily a nightmare.
00:06:09 Megan Antonelli: She speaks from experience.
00:06:11 Janae Sharp: Like I speak from like physicians that we've talked to and help also, like that was realistic and it felt realistic. Like everyone's worked with someone who was like a little off, you know, and, and being able to identify what to do with that is difficult. It also reminded me of, I think, the episode with Chris Gibbons, who is well spoken and not a little off, but able to have that, that, um, insight about what's going on that's so important.
00:06:43 Megan Antonelli: Right. Well, and I mean, I think, you know, and Chris is, is so passionate about equity in how healthcare is delivered and access. But you know, the other thing that sort of ties ties in Chris's work is around AI. And of course, that was how we got introduced to al-Hashimi on on Reddit. They call her the AI doc right there. She's coming in and saying, you know, use these tools. They will make you more efficient. They will help with burnout. Um, and, and of course, you know, that that theme speaks to us. Uh, yeah.
00:07:15 Janae Sharp: So the passionate younger doctor who has great ideas about technology. I love those doctors. Yes.
00:07:22 Megan Antonelli: And I, you know, and I think that we see a lot go through that episode, uh, around the AI adoption. I mean, the scribing and, and putting their, their records in is a huge part of the episode, of course, because of the third piece of it, which is the cybersecurity, uh, threat that happens, that forces them to shut down the entire health system. So, right, you know, between the AI, the ambient listening, the importance of it, you know, watching them, the, the residents and doctors literally falling asleep at the computer screen, um, multiple times for doctor in Doctor Santos's case. Um, you know, while they are trying to use these new tools and then in fact, I think, you know, to, to speak about what Chris talked about in that episode, uh, which was hallucinations. Hallucinations. There is an episode last season where, uh, they come down and they say, why does it say this? This doesn't make sense. And it was in fact, you know, the ambient tool, miss.
00:08:23 Janae Sharp: Right.
00:08:24 Megan Antonelli: Miss hearing and the doctor not catching it. So, um, and.
00:08:28 Janae Sharp: We love our ambient tools. So if you want to see that episode, it's navigating the intersection of equity and innovation and AI driven healthcare with Chris Gibbons. He's now the entrepreneur in residence at Johns Hopkins University Bloomberg Center. And he's brilliant. He's been a guest of ours and spoken many times.
00:08:44 Megan Antonelli: So literally one of my favorite people in person and on the show, hands down.
00:08:50 Janae Sharp: Yeah. So he's one of our number, point number one favorite things altogether always involves him. Yeah.
00:08:57 Megan Antonelli: And then on AI, one of my favorite shows that we just did recently. And it was a thrill to have her on the show because she used to be with New York Presbyterian, my, you know, home hospital. She is now at, um, at Sutter, Ashley BC who talks about, you know, sort of that, that pilot to platform scaling AI across and what Sutter has done, you know, and how it's created so much efficiency. So, um, you know, great episodes and great conversations around that. Um, and definitely one of my favorites.
00:09:28 Janae Sharp: So yeah.
00:09:29 Megan Antonelli: So.
00:09:29 Janae Sharp: It's.
00:09:29 Megan Antonelli: Doctor Ashley.
00:09:30 Janae Sharp: Is it doctor Ashley. BC is that how to say her name. Chief AI officer of Sutter health so check those episodes out. And now let's talk more about AI.
00:09:43 Megan Antonelli: Well I think that, you know I think the ambient listening piece goes, um, you know, sort of cuts through the whole episode and where it then falls down, right? Because they they ultimately lose all technology in, in the show. Uh, to, to that threat. You know.
00:09:58 Janae Sharp: I think all of our listeners can relate to that at some point in their career, either they've started a rollout, they've had two thousand tickets or their system has gone down. So paper charting.
00:10:09 Megan Antonelli: And I think the, the best line in the whole season may very well be the nurse who comes back, uh, or the, you know, the administrative charge nurse who comes back to help them through this paper running system who says, I was downsized to digital transformation. So not only do we have the double burn of this cyber security threat and knowing what that feels like, if the systems go down within the health system, but also knowing that we've seen some some folks, you know, sort of go to that. So it was it, you know, they not every episode basically has brought, brought, brought all of those messages home for sure. Um, I think.
00:10:51 Janae Sharp: That was so relatable, I think to like who comes in, who comes in an emergency, the nurse who knew her stuff.
00:10:58 Megan Antonelli: Yeah. Right.
00:10:58 Janae Sharp: And she.
00:10:59 Megan Antonelli: For sure, um, I think that, you know, I loved how they, they rolled in a fax machine as though the fax machines weren't already there, you know, so there's, you know, there's some key key moments where, uh, they, they play into this new, you know, kind of level of, of tech. Um, but then.
00:11:21 Janae Sharp: Yeah. Was that like an Easter egg though for people who, for discussions about the facts? I feel like it might have been people like, oh, imagine. Right.
00:11:29 Megan Antonelli: Well, speaking of Easter eggs, what about at the very, very end of this episode? And there's a badge stolen and we see it on one of the patients, uh, who is out in the street now, uh, with, with, um, oh, I'm going to forget his name, uh, but his badge. So, uh, we, you know, cybersecurity all the way to identity management. So let's not forget about our episodes with our partners Sailpoint and what they do and how important that is. But you know, they really, I think one thing is they really touch on, on just about everything in terms of, um, you know, the challenges and to think it's only been two shifts that they've managed to stuff that all into, uh, two seasons. But, um, one of our.
00:12:16 Janae Sharp: That's unrealistic, but let's, you know, yes.
00:12:19 Megan Antonelli: You know, you know, I hope it's unrealistic, but.
00:12:21 Janae Sharp: Unless someone out there, E.R. doctors weigh in. Have you had a shift like this in the comments? We want to hear about it. And we want to have you on our podcast talking about it.
00:12:34 Megan Antonelli: Yes. But and so I think one of my favorite episodes is with Rob cyborg. And, you know, while this one goes back a bit, we talked a lot about the change, healthcare breach and redefining healthcare, cybersecurity, you know, back, you know, it was all, all of twenty twenty five that we did that. But the story and what he had to say is still so relevant today. Um, and none of that has become less relevant as, uh, you know, AI adoption and the threats kind of continue. So, um, I, that's definitely one of my favorite episodes and he's one of my favorite folks to talk to. So, you know, I think.
00:13:09 Janae Sharp: I think it's so important too, because one of the things when they talk about security and identity breaches, a lot of times the, the conversation is so practical, like we're trying to get a job done. Is the technology allowing us to do it? And I think about that too, because one of, one of the things we've done with sharp Index, we looked at people's behavior. And one of the first things you always realize is that people are logging in under everybody's login, like we are at the baseline sometimes. So even these conversations from several years ago apply today One hundred percent.
00:13:48 Megan Antonelli: Yeah. No. And, you know, I mean, as much as we're adopting technology fast, things are moving faster than I think they've ever moved before. The problems are still there and we are still figuring out, you know, how this technology can can really fix some of the fundamental problems. And of course, that's what I love about the show, is that it really is bringing to light, maybe in somewhat of an unrealistic way, all of the problems and unlike other, you know, hospital shows which tend to lean towards patient drama and relationship drama between the physicians, because, you know, back in the soap opera days of romance, that's what we like to watch, right? I mean.
00:14:28 Janae Sharp: The days of our lives. I still love Lisa Rinna and we're still here for that.
00:14:33 Megan Antonelli: I mean, let's talk about the first hospital show, General Hospital.
00:14:37 Janae Sharp: I never watched it, but I'm just not a hospital show watcher.
00:14:42 Megan Antonelli: And then we had E.R. and Grey's and house and scrubs and all the rest. And I've watched them pretty much all. And, um, you know, this one is, is different because of the way it's talking about the relationship between the physician and the health system. Now, that being said, there are patients every episode and a lot of those stories are also saying something, right? I mean, I think there's been, um, and I'm sure I'm conflating seasons, but, you know, patients.
00:15:18 Janae Sharp: They're all one season to us.
00:15:20 Megan Antonelli: Right? Patients coming in, you know, kids with stuff up their nose, parents who don't want to vaccinate their kids, um, you know, and, and you see the physicians making judgment calls, but always providing the best care to their ability, right?
00:15:35 Janae Sharp: And I've seen those comments online physicians are like, well, if you don't want a vaccine, why do you want treatment for measles? Like people are saying this.
00:15:43 Megan Antonelli: And of course.
00:15:44 Janae Sharp: Not just on Reddit, This is on threads. This is, you know, Facebook. People are frustrated. And I'm glad that the show captured some of that frustration and also opened up the dialogue because people, people are mad. People are frustrated with the health system. They don't believe what doctors are telling them. Violence against health care providers has increased. It's one of the most dangerous places to work, right?
00:16:14 Megan Antonelli: And that's a theme that comes through.
00:16:16 Janae Sharp: They had to talk about it and they have to talk about patients. Mhm.
00:16:20 Megan Antonelli: You know and I think where we have. So I mean, the whole the first episode, I'm sorry, the first season, the big event was the mass shooting at the concert, the second season, it's fourth of July, which is a whole other issue. People are coming in drunk and having, you know, prepared margaritas and have blown off hands and limbs. So there is a consistent, you know, sort of theme of, of sort of self inflicted injury that happens. And then to juxtapose to that, there is the very touching story about the cancer, the mom with, with cancer, who, you know, really chooses to spend her last days, last hours in the E.R. to kind of alleviate the burden of her husband, who has been her caregiver. So they really do.
00:17:15 Janae Sharp: That's heartbreaking.
00:17:16 Megan Antonelli: Right? And it was heartbreaking. And of course, you're watching the physicians go through all of that, all within a twelve hour, sixteen hour period. Um, you know, and I think it, it does it, you know, some things fall flat. I think the and some things are really well done. The woman who comes in who didn't want medical care and she's got preeclampsia and almost dies. I mean, that that of course, juxtaposed to Baby Jane Doe, who's been sitting in a room mostly all day, you know, with an occasional care, an occasional physician taking care of them. But it, you know, and then on, on top of all that, I mean, this is, you know, a patient dies in the waiting room and ironically, almost the last, you know, sort of not the like, the least of the least of the stories that happened in the season was, was that one. And, you know, I, I'd like to think that that would be a bigger deal on, on any day, on any given day. But they there is a patient, you know, they're judging the patients, they're dealing with that. And it goes back to our very early conversations with Dean around moral injury as as a physician and what that means. And of course, um, you know, expecting to be taken care of people and, and doing good health care and, and in the ER, it tends to be um, a, a larger gamut of things that they're, they're grappling with.
00:18:42 Janae Sharp: I do think one of the things about the show that I kind of I understand it's a show you need drama, people need drama. That's not all going to happen in one day. One thing I remember clearly from talking to a physician is her saying, you know, the biggest misconception I had about emergency medicine is that we were going to be doing emergency medicine, is that everything we would do would matter. We'd always be saving lives. And that day to day is tough. And so the pit takes on this topic of emergency medicine. They're condensing it all down, I think, because they have to. I mean, it's TV no one wants to watch eight hundred cold cases, right? Like, but burnout for emergency physicians, right. If Noah Wylie was in it, Megan would be there. And when Noah Wylie comes to our podcast, I can't imagine what you're going to say, but like burnout rates for these physicians is high fifties to low 60s. They're burned out. So I'm glad that they looked at some of those things and those important topics. Um, although it was kind of, I could see that being really relatable, but I can also see emergency physicians being like, really, like you had to only do the drama, didn't you? Right.
00:20:01 Megan Antonelli: It is almost like they have a checklist of, you know, what messages do they want to send home today? Um, right. But of course, the biggest theme that has run from the very first episode all the way to the last episode is, you know, sort of Noah Wiley and Doctor Robbie's, you know, managing his PTSD from the pandemic. Um, you know, sort of the, that first episode where he's up on the roof where, you know, you know, that his colleague is there trying to help him, you know, through that. There's the, you know, the, the therapist or the hospital psychiatrist who's trying to get him to talk to him. He refuses to talk. And of course, this whole season, he's going out on his motorcycle death trip, you know, without a helmet on and being reckless and irresponsible. And, you know, as we were all kind of looking at Reddit and wondering, okay, what is the season finale going to bring? There was all this speculation around, you know, obviously Noah Wylie's not going to kill himself or commit suicide because of it's his show and he's the star. And so what is that? You know, so and there was speculation that it would be Doctor Santos or Landon or others because they are all going through it. You know, his is a direct PTSD. But then of course they introduced you know, he was abandoned and he has abandonment issues and there's a lot to it. But one of the reasons I did want to force you to watch the show is because this is something we talk about so often, and your career and your, you know, organization is, is smack there in the middle doing the work to help physicians with suicide. So in that, what did you think of.
00:21:47 Janae Sharp: We we even talked about about that. I remember two weeks ago, I talked to someone like, what are the signs, you know, with a coworker? Like, what can you do? And that was one thing that I thought people needed to pay attention to. The person who was able to relate to him was someone who went through it. It wasn't necessarily like the soft social worker. It wasn't the system. Because a lot of the times you can't trust the system they have, you know, they they might not feel safe saying that they might not even recognize it in themselves. Um, I also thought it also showed even these discussions about people speculating on what would happen. It showed our need for this to be over. Like you can have PTSD, you can have burnout, but we need it to either go or go away. And that was tough to see, right? When when you're dealing with difficult situations or people who have problems, they don't just go away. And I was glad they didn't make it just go away. And that feeling though, that people have that like, oh, like this is still a void. I think that's also important to look at that we're looking for security and it makes it really tough for us as individuals to see. Right.
00:23:09 Megan Antonelli: Um, yeah. I mean, there was a lot of people who were very disappointed with the, with the finale because to some extent, nothing really happened. There was no closure whatsoever. We don't even know if he goes away or not. Right. We don't know if he goes on a sabbatical. We don't know if he takes the time. We don't know if he adopts Baby Jane Doe, although it's implied, you know, and all of the, you know, all of the physicians and residents are upstairs, you know, uh, watching the fireworks and then go down and sing karaoke, which, you know, is actually somewhat realistic, right? I mean, you know, you know, life goes on. And, and that's and that I think was poignant and they didn't do it for the drama because that is not what the fans were looking for. Right. The fans were looking for something, some emotional climax in that final. And what they got were a lot of friends, a lot of coworkers reaching out to Doctor Ravi saying, what's going on? Don't go, we love you. Come back, you know. Right. And so, you know, I think there's, um, a lot and who knows where it will go from here. Um, and I think.
00:24:23 Janae Sharp: Who knows if that man will steal that baby or not.
00:24:29 Megan Antonelli: But I think.
00:24:29 Janae Sharp: That. Tell us what, what do you think? Will he take the baby? Oh, we'll teach him how to swaddle.
00:24:36 Megan Antonelli: Somebody going to teach him how to swaddle because that was, um, if that was either a window into, uh, his actual parenting or it was a, uh, some sort of Easter egg signal that he, you know.
00:24:51 Janae Sharp: I feel like when I had babies, those hospital workers could really swaddle. They're really good on the swaddle. Yeah. It had to be on purpose. They're like, oh, you have kids don't swaddle that baby. So well.
00:25:01 Megan Antonelli: Right? I hope so, because my mom knows how to swaddle. Yeah.
00:25:05 Janae Sharp: Are they going to get rid of are they going to get rid of the ambient AI system? Are they going to have another security breach? Like where from here.
00:25:13 Megan Antonelli: Where from here is a good question that that will have to be our next episode. But I think, um, you know, I think what it brings down to us is, you know, we're covering the topics we are maybe we're trying to boil to, we're trying to do too much. They try to do too much. They pack a lot into each.
00:25:32 Janae Sharp: Uh, when someone tells you they're too much, tell them to go find less. But not too much. Okay.
00:25:40 Megan Antonelli: It is, uh, you know, it's an exciting and interesting time. And, and the reality of healthcare is, you know, is enough drama to, to certainly fill two seasons. We'll see what they do with the third.
00:25:52 Janae Sharp: Yeah. And let's also see, what I love is that they're partnering with non-profit organizations. So for those of you watching, when you're having those big feelings, support the organizations behind it. We know that emotion drives behavior. So it isn't going to be us realizing that things are hard that can help improve mental health. It will be things that drive our emotions and, and make us realize, oh, we can do something about this. And even the pit, they might, they're not going to fund all of the things that need to happen. They're not going to fund the research. You know, I think they're going to make some money, but let's make sure that the things that are happening are also helping and leading us to be better. You know, if you're a leader and you realize, oh, I should be having more conversations about these topics that are literally so ubiquitous that they came up on the pit. It'd be a good, good idea to have those conversations. Yeah.
00:26:49 Megan Antonelli: one hundred percent. And I, you know, and I think that it's what we learn here doing the work that we do. And it is what all of our listeners and the folks who come to our events do is, you know, the shift isn't over. It continues. The work will always be there to kind of improve, to improve health care for, uh, for everyone. And, um, it's an honor to do it with you, Janet, and to have been doing these two hundred episodes. And we have to give a shout out to our team. And of course, Shahid Shah, who has, you know, it was actually Shah's absolute idea to turn our, our work into a podcast five years ago. So, um, shout out to Shahid, who's often on the show. And, um, Andrea Also who does all of our editing and production. We couldn't do it without everybody. So thank you so much for listening. Um, you know, I highly recommend going back. It was so fun to look back at some of the episodes from the last five years. Um, you know, most are still incredibly relevant. Uh, and, you know, we've got great leaders on and now I want to get a lot of them back. So thanks again. Subscribe. If you are not already, subscribe to digital health talks, follow us on YouTube and I hope to see you soon at an in-person health Impact Live. This is Megan Antonelli, CEO of Health Impact Live, and.
00:28:09 Janae Sharp: Jenny Sharp, founder of Sharp Index.
00:28:12 Megan Antonelli: And this is Digital health Talks. Let's keep fixing health care one conversation at a time.
00:28:19 Outro: Thank you for joining us on Digital Health Talks, where we explore the intersection of health care and technology with leaders who are transforming patient care. This episode was brought to you by our valued program partners. Automation anywhere, revolutionising healthcare workflows through intelligent automation. Natera. Advancing. Contactless. Vital signs. Monitoring. Elite. Groups. Delivering strategic. Healthcare. IT solutions. Sailpoint. Securing healthcare identity management and access. Governance. Your engagement helps drive the future of healthcare innovation. Subscribe to digital health Talks on your preferred podcast platform. Share these insights with your network and follow us on LinkedIn for exclusive content and updates. Ready to connect with healthcare technology leaders in person? Join us at the next Health Impact event. Visit Health Impact Forum dot com for dates and registration. Until next time. This is Digital Health talks where changemakers come together to fix healthcare.